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	<title>Comments on: Too skeptical yet not skeptical enough</title>
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	<link>http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/too-skeptical-yet-not-skeptical-enough/</link>
	<description>Scathing Skepticism and Social Commentary</description>
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		<title>By: anaglyph</title>
		<link>http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/too-skeptical-yet-not-skeptical-enough/#comment-289</link>
		<dc:creator>anaglyph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-289</guid>
		<description>I identify as a skeptic (and an atheist) but am reticent to be publicly &lt;em&gt;involved&lt;/em&gt; in the movement due to the awful sense of, how shall I put it, &lt;em&gt;self importance&lt;/em&gt; (that&#039;s not quite right)... let&#039;s say &#039;over-seriousness&#039; that seems to pervade some of the skeptical community. 

I recently moved from Sydney to Melbourne, and a few weeks ago I thought I might just trot along to one of the Melbourne Skeptics meetings to get a feel for the Melbourne scene. I was very disappointed to find myself at a table of the gruffest, most humourless and fractious people I&#039;ve ever had the misfortune to dine with. Now I&#039;m pretty hard-line myself, but I do have a sense of humour, something that was most definitely lacking from this crew. Not only that, I found myself defending my atheism! At a table full of skeptics! It was like these people had decided they were going to be skeptical of &lt;em&gt;any&lt;/em&gt; point of view that was offered them.

I don&#039;t want to make this a story about that particular night - maybe I just picked a table full of people that didn&#039;t suit my personality, or maybe they were just overly grumpy from a bad day at work. But my observation is that this does tend to be the perception of skeptics from outside the community - that we are not so much skeptical as cynical. Not so much rationalists as party-poopers. Not so much atheists as morally barren heathens.

I was also surprised at the demographic of the group - a definite skew into the older-males-with-beards area. Not that I should throw stones, being in that parish myself, but I did find it a little dispiriting that there weren&#039;t more young people there.

I don&#039;t know how we change this image, but it is clear to me that we must. We need an influx of educated, vibrant, active young people with senses of humour. For a start, other young people are likely to be much more easily persuaded to listen to rational argument by skeptics of their own age than by an old geezer like myself - no matter how amusing I can be.

Like your blog. Will link you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I identify as a skeptic (and an atheist) but am reticent to be publicly <em>involved</em> in the movement due to the awful sense of, how shall I put it, <em>self importance</em> (that&#8217;s not quite right)&#8230; let&#8217;s say &#8216;over-seriousness&#8217; that seems to pervade some of the skeptical community. </p>
<p>I recently moved from Sydney to Melbourne, and a few weeks ago I thought I might just trot along to one of the Melbourne Skeptics meetings to get a feel for the Melbourne scene. I was very disappointed to find myself at a table of the gruffest, most humourless and fractious people I&#8217;ve ever had the misfortune to dine with. Now I&#8217;m pretty hard-line myself, but I do have a sense of humour, something that was most definitely lacking from this crew. Not only that, I found myself defending my atheism! At a table full of skeptics! It was like these people had decided they were going to be skeptical of <em>any</em> point of view that was offered them.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to make this a story about that particular night &#8211; maybe I just picked a table full of people that didn&#8217;t suit my personality, or maybe they were just overly grumpy from a bad day at work. But my observation is that this does tend to be the perception of skeptics from outside the community &#8211; that we are not so much skeptical as cynical. Not so much rationalists as party-poopers. Not so much atheists as morally barren heathens.</p>
<p>I was also surprised at the demographic of the group &#8211; a definite skew into the older-males-with-beards area. Not that I should throw stones, being in that parish myself, but I did find it a little dispiriting that there weren&#8217;t more young people there.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how we change this image, but it is clear to me that we must. We need an influx of educated, vibrant, active young people with senses of humour. For a start, other young people are likely to be much more easily persuaded to listen to rational argument by skeptics of their own age than by an old geezer like myself &#8211; no matter how amusing I can be.</p>
<p>Like your blog. Will link you.</p>
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		<title>By: Spankermatic</title>
		<link>http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/too-skeptical-yet-not-skeptical-enough/#comment-263</link>
		<dc:creator>Spankermatic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-263</guid>
		<description>I must say it is hard sometimes to tread the line of skepticism, without wandering into the territory of bullheaded assholedom.  I made the mistake of trying the role of the educator at a family gathering once, but the arguments being presented for the presence of god and ghosts, as much as I refuted them with evidence, were firmly fixed in my family members minds.  It became infuriating that people could not &quot;see it&quot; and I must admit I learnt two lessons that night - don&#039;t try and shake a true believers faith with aggressive arguments, and never discuss religion at family gatherings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must say it is hard sometimes to tread the line of skepticism, without wandering into the territory of bullheaded assholedom.  I made the mistake of trying the role of the educator at a family gathering once, but the arguments being presented for the presence of god and ghosts, as much as I refuted them with evidence, were firmly fixed in my family members minds.  It became infuriating that people could not &#8220;see it&#8221; and I must admit I learnt two lessons that night &#8211; don&#8217;t try and shake a true believers faith with aggressive arguments, and never discuss religion at family gatherings.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Statue</title>
		<link>http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/too-skeptical-yet-not-skeptical-enough/#comment-262</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Statue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 19:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-262</guid>
		<description>Is Dawkins an atheist? I was under the impression that we was an atheistic agnostic...well, atheist for practical purposes, but technically an agnostic. I think when people claim that atheism is as stupid as theism, they mean that it&#039;s just as foolishly absolute.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is Dawkins an atheist? I was under the impression that we was an atheistic agnostic&#8230;well, atheist for practical purposes, but technically an agnostic. I think when people claim that atheism is as stupid as theism, they mean that it&#8217;s just as foolishly absolute.</p>
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		<title>By: Too skeptical yet not skeptical enough &#171; Skepfeeds-The Best Skeptic blogs of the day</title>
		<link>http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/too-skeptical-yet-not-skeptical-enough/#comment-259</link>
		<dc:creator>Too skeptical yet not skeptical enough &#171; Skepfeeds-The Best Skeptic blogs of the day</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-259</guid>
		<description>[...] Too skeptical yet not skeptical&#160;enough July 22, 2008 Posted by Skepdude in Skepbitch, Skepticism.  Tags: Atheism, Christians, cynic, education, James Randi, Psychics, Religion, Richard Dawkins, Skepticism, theism trackback  CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE ORIGINAL ENTRY AT &#8220;THE SKEPBITCH&#8221;  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Too skeptical yet not skeptical&nbsp;enough July 22, 2008 Posted by Skepdude in Skepbitch, Skepticism.  Tags: Atheism, Christians, cynic, education, James Randi, Psychics, Religion, Richard Dawkins, Skepticism, theism trackback  CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE ORIGINAL ENTRY AT &#8220;THE SKEPBITCH&#8221;  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: AndyD</title>
		<link>http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/too-skeptical-yet-not-skeptical-enough/#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>AndyD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-258</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m new to the art of public skepticism but can see that it is a difficult balancing act. 

I think that how you present an argument might, at times, depend on who your target audience is (other skeptics, interested agnostics or hard-bitten believers).

Using two of the &quot;bigger&quot; names in skeptic blog circles: PZ (pharyngula) knows his real audience is atheists and skeptics in general and he plays to them. Sometimes too heavily, even for skeptics, but that seems to be his audience. Orac (respectful insolence)relies more on presenting evidence and, to me, seems more targeted to skeptics and agnostics. It&#039;s difficult to know if there&#039;s any point writing a skeptical blog targeted at true believers.

One problem I have with gentle skeptics is that they can leave the door so wide open that even agnostics have trouble being convinced by them. I think people, in general, look for certainty from their educators so faced with the absolute belief of believers and the wishy-washy &quot;I&#039;m not convinced but maybe&quot; of the skeptic, the &quot;evidence&quot; is weighted towards belief.

I have to agree, though, that humour is an essential part of public skepticism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m new to the art of public skepticism but can see that it is a difficult balancing act. </p>
<p>I think that how you present an argument might, at times, depend on who your target audience is (other skeptics, interested agnostics or hard-bitten believers).</p>
<p>Using two of the &#8220;bigger&#8221; names in skeptic blog circles: PZ (pharyngula) knows his real audience is atheists and skeptics in general and he plays to them. Sometimes too heavily, even for skeptics, but that seems to be his audience. Orac (respectful insolence)relies more on presenting evidence and, to me, seems more targeted to skeptics and agnostics. It&#8217;s difficult to know if there&#8217;s any point writing a skeptical blog targeted at true believers.</p>
<p>One problem I have with gentle skeptics is that they can leave the door so wide open that even agnostics have trouble being convinced by them. I think people, in general, look for certainty from their educators so faced with the absolute belief of believers and the wishy-washy &#8220;I&#8217;m not convinced but maybe&#8221; of the skeptic, the &#8220;evidence&#8221; is weighted towards belief.</p>
<p>I have to agree, though, that humour is an essential part of public skepticism.</p>
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		<title>By: Skeptics Of Catlos, Er, Carlos! &#124; podblack.com</title>
		<link>http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/too-skeptical-yet-not-skeptical-enough/#comment-257</link>
		<dc:creator>Skeptics Of Catlos, Er, Carlos! &#124; podblack.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-257</guid>
		<description>[...] of Skepbitch kicks it like it should be - with her blog entry on &#8216;Too Skeptical And Yet Not Skeptical Enough&#8217;, as always, raising the big issues and questioning [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of Skepbitch kicks it like it should be &#8211; with her blog entry on &#8216;Too Skeptical And Yet Not Skeptical Enough&#8217;, as always, raising the big issues and questioning [...]</p>
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		<title>By: phwise</title>
		<link>http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/too-skeptical-yet-not-skeptical-enough/#comment-256</link>
		<dc:creator>phwise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:30:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-256</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not so much a matter of skepticism as it is a matter of being an asshole. You can be one without being the other. 

Now, if the charge against the skeptic is that he or she is being &#039;elitist,&#039; and has nothing to do with her or his attitude and everything to do with the content of his or her speech, then I&#039;m afraid the charge is quite correct: rather than accepting the democratically accepted &#039;common knowledge,&#039; we are in fact being elitist in insisting on going to actual research.

The task, then, is to produce a shared &#039;common knowledge&#039; of the culture which includes an acceptance of the idea of the authority of empirical evidence, and which does not accept the idea of the supreme authority of anecdote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not so much a matter of skepticism as it is a matter of being an asshole. You can be one without being the other. </p>
<p>Now, if the charge against the skeptic is that he or she is being &#8216;elitist,&#8217; and has nothing to do with her or his attitude and everything to do with the content of his or her speech, then I&#8217;m afraid the charge is quite correct: rather than accepting the democratically accepted &#8216;common knowledge,&#8217; we are in fact being elitist in insisting on going to actual research.</p>
<p>The task, then, is to produce a shared &#8216;common knowledge&#8217; of the culture which includes an acceptance of the idea of the authority of empirical evidence, and which does not accept the idea of the supreme authority of anecdote.</p>
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		<title>By: podblack</title>
		<link>http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/too-skeptical-yet-not-skeptical-enough/#comment-247</link>
		<dc:creator>podblack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 05:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-247</guid>
		<description>Having been burnt for DARING (shock!!) to question fellow skeptics on their behaviour... meh, you said it all.

And hades help me from more ranting... I can post fifteen proactive suggestions and just get more &#039;yes, but you&#039;re not as popular as X, so why should anyone care about you...&#039;... bleah.

Right, that&#039;s it, I&#039;m going to go fold a paper flying pig, that helps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having been burnt for DARING (shock!!) to question fellow skeptics on their behaviour&#8230; meh, you said it all.</p>
<p>And hades help me from more ranting&#8230; I can post fifteen proactive suggestions and just get more &#8216;yes, but you&#8217;re not as popular as X, so why should anyone care about you&#8230;&#8217;&#8230; bleah.</p>
<p>Right, that&#8217;s it, I&#8217;m going to go fold a paper flying pig, that helps.</p>
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		<title>By: truthwalker</title>
		<link>http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/too-skeptical-yet-not-skeptical-enough/#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>truthwalker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-246</guid>
		<description>1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

I don&#039;t think anyone minds having the light of skepticism shown on them when they feel like you are doing it because you care so much you will tell even a painful truth.  But nobody wants to have what they believe torn up just so a skeptic can laugh at them.  Speak truth, with love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think anyone minds having the light of skepticism shown on them when they feel like you are doing it because you care so much you will tell even a painful truth.  But nobody wants to have what they believe torn up just so a skeptic can laugh at them.  Speak truth, with love.</p>
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		<title>By: MJ</title>
		<link>http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/too-skeptical-yet-not-skeptical-enough/#comment-245</link>
		<dc:creator>MJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 05:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepbitch.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-245</guid>
		<description>A good skeptic should always have a sense of humor.
Cynicism is ok - but it can get grating if overdone. 
But anyway, I reckon things are in our favor as skeptics are
definitely happier according to a new survey!

http://sycologist.blogspot.com/2008/07/skeptics-are-happier.html

cheers...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good skeptic should always have a sense of humor.<br />
Cynicism is ok &#8211; but it can get grating if overdone.<br />
But anyway, I reckon things are in our favor as skeptics are<br />
definitely happier according to a new survey!</p>
<p><a href="http://sycologist.blogspot.com/2008/07/skeptics-are-happier.html" rel="nofollow">http://sycologist.blogspot.com/2008/07/skeptics-are-happier.html</a></p>
<p>cheers&#8230;</p>
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